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reiXmann
Trinituner Peong
Joined: 16 Sep 2006
Tech posts: 455
Location: begging pops for meh keys :|
My 2NRide: Honda Integra Type R
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 Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 9:55 pm
Post subject: On engine mods... |
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Coming out of the lime we had on Sunday, i think this might help give some direction wrt this topic and reinforce what SR was saying:
| leepants wrote: | Now, as you'll no doubt be aware, there's LOTS of mods that can be done to an engine. Air filter / exhaust was always the way to get more go. However, with these engines, its not so easy. 90+% of the time, any bolt-on will compromise somewhere.
A lot of companies promote "BHP enhancing" stuff. Its mainly marketing rubbish, just to get to your hard-earned. Honda DID make a good stab at our engines, and they DO make roughly 100bhp / litre N/A - for MANY years a massive benchmark. And thats REAL bhp, not internet crap.
However, as with all mass manufactured things with mass targets - its a compromise, albeit a small one.
However, those who want "more power" need to realise that its VERY easy to get peak numbers from a dyno - with gearing variations, to tyre pressure readings to weather conditions...... And to what end? So someone can pee further than someone else, ie for pub bragging. In reality, it means NOTHING!!! If someone feels they need to have more numbers than the next man, why buy a 1.8 N/A Honda!!!!??
Now, also, folk need to consider what an engine actually is.....
So? Its a machine made up of an awful lot of smaller machines, or perhaps better described as "systems". Each of these systems CAN be refined, however, as with all compromises, you will undoubtedly "take form Peter to give to Paul". In other words, perhaps gain in one place to sacrifice in another. Also, don't forget the other "benefits" of getting it wrong, like reliability rebuilds, fuel consumption, and in comparison to the benefits of doing it well.
Now, normally, BHP numbers sell stuff, so to make money, folk will say that "X is best - it gave me 13bp". Yes, maybe. But at peak. Overall, there's likely to be a LOSS of 30bhp, for example, in 95 of the rev range. How is that increasing power!????
EVERY part of "tweaking" of the engine MUST be considered twofold:-
1. To maximise effeciency of that part of the (sub)system
2. To maximise the effeciency (ie reduce power loss) of the ENTIRE system (engine output).
1 is fairly "easy".
2 it's quite "hard" its not just a bolt on it needs mapping and / or setting up to work.
3 it's very "hard" getting reliable high power outputs with a wide powerband.
As has been said before, peak numbers mean very little, unreliable peak numbers mean even less! If the RPM is shifted where peak torque is made' its not tuning the engine, as, if we lose everywhere else its just moving the power band up. Remember HP = RPM X torque / 5252
now thats fine but we havent really done much we will have more engine wear, we may have a less flat power band and when we change gear we may even drop out of the power band we have now moved!”
“real tuneing is not about bhp it's about power band shape with good reliablty..
if an motor makes more Troque (ftlb) at the same RPM it's what we call tuned, if you can do this without a loss anywhere else it's often very well tuned.
Peak BHP is easy to "manufacture" - just increase the revs.
Mean (average) bhp is REAL hard to hide from. As was said earlier, peak increase is more than likely to reduce everywhere else, so the mean gain is important. There may be a drop in peak, to gain more everywhere else, which WILL result in a fast car, because no-one drives in the last 1000rpm 90% of the time.
And, don't forget - to gain "power", all one has to really do is lose weight, or as Colin Chapman once said "add lightness".
Also, going quickly, but 100% of the time, means going safely too. So, to get your car quicker form A to B than someone else with the same car, what's the difference? Yep, the driver. Hence the amount of times folk have said that to get quicker, get better, not get power. Ie get training. It is without a shadow of a doubt, THE best "speed enhancer" (ie, take less time to get somewhere) where value for money is concerned.
I realise that there a re a fair few questions that may arise from this - PLEASE avail yourselves of this forum an the info therein to help iron out any misconception / confusion that may occur. Or PM / search then ask.  |
Taken from: http://www.itr-dc2.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=36809 |
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No Fear at all!!!
Riding on 13's
Joined: 19 Dec 2008
Tech posts: 8
Location: Where there is a 1/4 mile!!
My 2NRide:
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Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 10:17 pm
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| ...so wait nah..doh change meh pistons, or wah??? doh put in ah stage 2 cam den??? wah yuh tellin meh reiXmann.... |
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SR
Chief Cook & Instigator
Joined: 07 Apr 2003
Tech posts: 6804
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Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 10:22 pm
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overall area under the curve
thats how you measure increase in performance
not just x hp at y rpm
and below and above y rpm there is a a steep curve
doing high numbers on a the dyno does not mean a faster car on the street or track
by the time some cars take to create that hp other have already gone their merry way |
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No Fear at all!!!
Riding on 13's
Joined: 19 Dec 2008
Tech posts: 8
Location: Where there is a 1/4 mile!!
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Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 10:30 pm
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...SR yuh have ah point.. However, pistons and ah good cam can do some damage to a competitor...  |
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SR
Chief Cook & Instigator
Joined: 07 Apr 2003
Tech posts: 6804
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Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 10:39 pm
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i'm not saying no
but whats the point of installign a "chipped" ecu on stock internals
what good is it going to do
shifting vtec down to say 4k but what about oil pressure
its all a balance
and in the aftermarket parts world its all about sales
aka chain up
and judging from the profitablilty there have been a lot of people who have been chained up based on a change in tone of thier exhaust |
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Samiir_Tuner
3NE 2NR for life
Joined: 08 Nov 2004
Tech posts: 209
My 2NRide: Honda Civic
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Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 11:52 pm
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| does a chipped ecu mean reflashed? because on my reflash i made more torque throughout my whole graph |
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Pootie
Ricer
Joined: 23 Dec 2008
Tech posts: 27
Location: Manhattan NYC
My 2NRide:
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Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 12:14 am
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we drive FWD carss!!
the key is suspension , suspension, suspension!!
once you can get the power to the floor , ya good!!!!
i been going 10's with less than 400whp because my car corner scaled and set up right !! I leave like a AWD car! Hell we have a SOHC with less than 350whp going 10.70s
now i can start adding power to the car, and get it going faster!
Another thing is powerband!! get the right mods for your goals!! Flat spots in the powerband will cause you to loose ET/MPH!! |
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red_dragon
3NE 2NR for life
Joined: 08 Apr 2004
Tech posts: 153
Location: Gonna stop talking to Honda Hoe
My 2NRide: honda EK4 Civic
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Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 8:05 am
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| No Fear at all!!! wrote: | | ...SR yuh have ah point.. However, pistons and ah good cam can do some damage to a competitor... |
not all the time
because there is/was a certain civic with more parts than u can imagine and pop down at official drags in camden
WHP was over 190 and it did 15-16sec on street tires
B-series BTW
this is just an example
Since SR mention
i put 2 examples do u think it would have been possible for the sedan to keep up ?
both B-series with proper tires, (same tires,gearing)
Ek hatch with
1850CC
14:1 cr
cams
Full Race exhaust mandrel
custom head work
Engine management
or
Ek sedan
STOCK b16a |
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SR
Chief Cook & Instigator
Joined: 07 Apr 2003
Tech posts: 6804
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Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 8:19 am
Post subject: |
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| Samiir_Tuner wrote: | | does a chipped ecu mean reflashed? because on my reflash i made more torque throughout my whole graph |
yes and no
the reflash used on your car was based on the octane fuel available to you
as well as engine setup specific
ie the reflash was for the k20 stock engine based on an cotane fuel rating available to you
locally
thats a different story
rememebr the red hatch
was there any real perfomance difference between the stock p30ecu and the chipped ecu
other than a change in exhaust tone there was none if anything it ran slower on a track
the same applies to the white/grey hatch with track times at wallerfield
no differnence on the 1/4 mile times between the spoon chipped ecu and the stock p30
there was more top end on the spoon chipped ecu on the highway but mid band perfomance wasnt as strong
all engines were stock internals with just bolt on cai and exhaust
unfortunalty at that time we had no dyno charts to show what was really going on
an ecu remap and as simple as a plug change can make a difference
the problem is most people get "chained up" with the hype of performance parts
and most mechanics will go with the flow for 2 reasons
1 the customer always seems to know more than the mechanic.......
2 the mechanic can make more money installing "parts" rather than just doing a fine tuning on the engine
at the end of the day
how often do you see a "modded" car at a garage or down for some reason or the other over a well tuned car that is as reliable as it came from the factory
simple things like valve adjustments and timing can make a difference on times on the track
choice of headers make a difference between midband and top end performance
choice of intake does the same
this is all based on my own experiences on the track and not "street" racing
as we have seen time and time again that most cars who are "fast" on the cross could barely scrape a 15 sec pass on the track |
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honda hoe
TriniTuner vip
Joined: 31 May 2006
Tech posts: 7155
Location: girls suck. women swallow. act your age
My 2NRide: Honda Integra Type R
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Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 8:38 am
Post subject: Re: On engine mods... |
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| reiXmann wrote: | | Taken from: http://www.itr-dc2.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=36809 |
| Quote: | | Location: on a quest for the red badge |
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kes_vtec
Shifting into 6th
Joined: 05 Jun 2004
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Location: time out
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Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 9:06 am
Post subject: |
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| SR wrote: | i'm not saying no
but whats the point of installign a "chipped" ecu on stock internals
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come SR, as a "old school tuner" i was hoping for a better answer, least from you.
now when you say... "chipping" do you mean goin' online and buying a chip,
or chipping the ecu so that you can go to the dyno, and have the ecu reprogrammed based in that. As you will have two very different outcomes.
Even in a bone stock motor, remapping the ecu give you some added power, it not about just moving vtec point, but doin' what needs to be done, and not what "you" want. vtec, fuel and timing add a dyno and do what needs to be done |
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HSI_CREW
Riding on 13's
Joined: 28 Nov 2008
Tech posts: 3
Location: Sticking
My 2NRide: Honda Civic
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Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 9:10 am
Post subject: |
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| hmm |
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SR
Chief Cook & Instigator
Joined: 07 Apr 2003
Tech posts: 6804
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Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 9:35 am
Post subject: |
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| kes_vtec wrote: | | SR wrote: | i'm not saying no
but whats the point of installign a "chipped" ecu on stock internals
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come SR, as a "old school tuner" i was hoping for a better answer, least from you.
now when you say... "chipping" do you mean goin' online and buying a chip,
or chipping the ecu so that you can go to the dyno, and have the ecu reprogrammed based in that. As you will have two very different outcomes.
Even in a bone stock motor, remapping the ecu give you some added power, it not about just moving vtec point, but doin' what needs to be done, and not what "you" want. vtec, fuel and timing add a dyno and do what needs to be done |
how many people go on the dyno and re-map thier ecu as opposed to those who just add a socket and install a pre programmed chip??
i am reffering to the "store" bought application |
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reiXmann
Trinituner Peong
Joined: 16 Sep 2006
Tech posts: 455
Location: begging pops for meh keys :|
My 2NRide: Honda Integra Type R
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Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 9:59 am
Post subject: |
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| SR wrote: |
how many people go on the dyno |
^^ should be end of question there
Most folks just spend $ and constantly talk about tuning/performance,yet never set foot inside a dyno. You have to know where you are at to know where you're going imo, and not go based on how the car 'feels'. |
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Honda_Crew
Street 2NR
Joined: 11 Apr 2008
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Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 10:19 am
Post subject: |
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i been going 10's with less than 400whp because my car corner scaled and set up right !! I leave like a AWD car! Hell we have a SOHC with less than 350whp going 10.70s
  NICE |
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A172
TriniTuner 24-7
Joined: 11 Aug 2008
Tech posts: 1657
Location: 1.10bar
My 2NRide: Chevrolet Monza
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Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 12:58 pm
Post subject: |
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| reiXmann wrote: | | SR wrote: |
how many people go on the dyno |
^^ should be end of question there
Most folks just spend $ and constantly talk about tuning/performance,yet never set foot inside a dyno. You have to know where you are at to know where you're going imo, and not go based on how the car 'feels'. |
see location. |
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reiXmann
Trinituner Peong
Joined: 16 Sep 2006
Tech posts: 455
Location: begging pops for meh keys :|
My 2NRide: Honda Integra Type R
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Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 1:16 pm
Post subject: |
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| A172 wrote: | | reiXmann wrote: | | SR wrote: |
how many people go on the dyno |
^^ should be end of question there
Most folks just spend $ and constantly talk about tuning/performance,yet never set foot inside a dyno. You have to know where you are at to know where you're going imo, and not go based on how the car 'feels'. |
see location. |
missing. |
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honda hoe
TriniTuner vip
Joined: 31 May 2006
Tech posts: 7155
Location: girls suck. women swallow. act your age
My 2NRide: Honda Integra Type R
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Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 1:21 pm
Post subject: |
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| reiXmann wrote: | | A172 wrote: | | reiXmann wrote: | | SR wrote: |
how many people go on the dyno |
^^ should be end of question there
Most folks just spend $ and constantly talk about tuning/performance,yet never set foot inside a dyno. You have to know where you are at to know where you're going imo, and not go based on how the car 'feels'. |
see location. |
missing. |
rasta wukkin hard  |
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A172
TriniTuner 24-7
Joined: 11 Aug 2008
Tech posts: 1657
Location: 1.10bar
My 2NRide: Chevrolet Monza
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Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 1:22 pm
Post subject: |
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bwdf
NAH!!!!
wtf |
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honda hoe
TriniTuner vip
Joined: 31 May 2006
Tech posts: 7155
Location: girls suck. women swallow. act your age
My 2NRide: Honda Integra Type R
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Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 1:46 pm
Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | NO VTEC, NO LOCATION |
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A172
TriniTuner 24-7
Joined: 11 Aug 2008
Tech posts: 1657
Location: 1.10bar
My 2NRide: Chevrolet Monza
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Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 1:51 pm
Post subject: |
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BANzai Rastafarai
2NR MILF Hunter
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Tech posts: 11226
Location: HELL HATH NO FURY!!!! *wipes froth from mouth*.....*glass breaking in background...
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Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 4:49 pm
Post subject: |
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| honda hoe wrote: | | reiXmann wrote: | | A172 wrote: | | reiXmann wrote: | | SR wrote: |
how many people go on the dyno |
^^ should be end of question there
Most folks just spend $ and constantly talk about tuning/performance,yet never set foot inside a dyno. You have to know where you are at to know where you're going imo, and not go based on how the car 'feels'. |
see location. |
missing. |
rasta wukkin hard |
DE MODDA!!!! see?.....den man does be apssin me str8 on the EMR and ting..giving them lights and dey neck str8......
i eh TOUCH the man sig rights eh!!....
IS SR ah vex with cuz now EVERYBODY know ah did buy the Spoon Civic.. |
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Samiir_Tuner
3NE 2NR for life
Joined: 08 Nov 2004
Tech posts: 209
My 2NRide: Honda Civic
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Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 11:44 pm
Post subject: |
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| yea for real, the red hatch made the same power on the chipped ecu..it ran super rich on anp tune though |
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reiXmann
Trinituner Peong
Joined: 16 Sep 2006
Tech posts: 455
Location: begging pops for meh keys :|
My 2NRide: Honda Integra Type R
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Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 8:07 am
Post subject: |
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| SR,any of you guys ever experimented with gearing/final drives? |
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No Fear at all!!!
Riding on 13's
Joined: 19 Dec 2008
Tech posts: 8
Location: Where there is a 1/4 mile!!
My 2NRide:
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Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 10:28 pm
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..Gearing is pretty important reiXmann..proper gearing gives u better acceleration for starters...In the 15b there are 2 types of gear boxes the eco, very long gears and the shortened geared box... Can't remember the model or numbers to differ the 2...
...it all depends on what you want to do... |
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reiXmann
Trinituner Peong
Joined: 16 Sep 2006
Tech posts: 455
Location: begging pops for meh keys :|
My 2NRide: Honda Integra Type R
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Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 10:49 pm
Post subject: |
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yeah i know ^
i'm asking if anybody ever experimented with changing final drives (besides cleriq) or replacing the individual gears themselves |
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EL JEFE
Chronic TriniTuner
Joined: 25 Feb 2004
Tech posts: 669
My 2NRide: Peugeot 307
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Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 11:26 pm
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| ^ ^ ^ I will talk to a rally driver soon and ask him how great the difference is. They did both those things for the rally in Tobago the other day. |
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No Fear at all!!!
Riding on 13's
Joined: 19 Dec 2008
Tech posts: 8
Location: Where there is a 1/4 mile!!
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Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 12:04 am
Post subject: |
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| reiXmann wrote: |
i'm asking if anybody ever experimented with changing final drives (besides cleriq) or replacing the individual gears themselves |
I think the guys at central speed have done this before...  |
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